But this is not okay. And the irony of it all is that now that I’m a mother, I feel like I’m being judged in everything that I do… I guess that’s my comeuppance.

Before I became pregnant, I had already decided that I wouldn’t drink a drop of alcohol during my pregnancy, I would eat the healthiest foods, and take all the pregnancy supplements. I would meditate every day and practice yoga five times a week. Then I became pregnant. And shit got real. I ate whatever I could hold down without vomiting. I never went to yoga. I watched TV instead of meditating. I didn’t take any supplements except folic acid, and I didn’t remember to take it every day. I developed a sweet tooth and ate far too many sweet treats. Towards the end of my pregnancy, I drank a glass of wine every now and then and it was fucking awesome. I swore I’d never microwave expressed breast-milk. I swore I’d only use cloth nappies. I was going to diligently fill out every detail in my son’s baby book. He was only going to wear gender-neutral clothing, and have gender-neutral toys. I was going to have a perfect home birth. The list goes on…

I think it’s worth acknowledging my privilege here too. I’m lucky enough that I can afford to be somewhat picky about what clothes my son wears. And that I had access to medical services of a decent standard when my home birth didn’t go as planned I had hoped. I’m lucky enough to not have to go back to work immediately, and that I have a wonderful support network of family and friends. I’m thankful for so much.

My son is now three months old. And being a mother is amazing. But it is also not amazing sometimes. It’s rewarding and fun, but it’s also challenging and tiring. And it’s difficult enough without trying to be perfect. And its’ difficult enough without other people expecting you to be perfect. Now I realise this. And so I apologise to all those mothers that I judged. I have no doubt now that you were doing the very best that you could. And in the context of parenthood, I think that is perfection.

This is how Olympus advertises their latest product (the Olympus PEN ‘Anything But Ordinary’ campaign).

Let me see if I understand this correctly… You have a beautiful girlfriend. But you’re bored by her appearance. Her ‘ordinary’ looks just aren’t doing it for you any more. So you buy this camera, apply the ‘Art Filter’, and voilà! You can tolerate looking at her again.

What a wonderful way to sell cameras – by convincing men that their women look too ordinary. It is, after all, a woman’s duty to look good for her man (what else is she good for besides her looks?!) But she can’t even do that right.

Problem solved!

]]> http://feminethicist.wordpress.com/2011/08/12/never-get-bored-of-how-your-girlfriend-looks-again/feed/ 3 ladybroseph olympus http://feminethicist.wordpress.com/2011/08/08/hetero-baby-match-making/ http://feminethicist.wordpress.com/2011/08/08/hetero-baby-match-making/#comments Mon, 08 Aug 2011 10:22:09 +0000 feminethicist http://feminethicist.wordpress.com/?p=365 ]]> You know how people like to joke about their babies marrying their friends’ babies? Like an informal arranged marriage. I get it; it’s funny and cute. And I don’t have a problem with it per se – these statements are not meant to be taken seriously. Most people let their children make their own decisions about future relationships.

What I do have a problem with is the underlying heterosexual assumption. This assumption was illustrated perfectly when a friend of mine said the following: “Oh, you’re having a boy? That’s a shame; he won’t be able to marry [friend's boy baby]“. As if all babies are born and/or will remain heterosexual.

When she was asked “Why not…?”, this friend was shocked and speechless. Perhaps because she realised how homophobic she sounded? Or maybe she was disgusted at the idea of a homosexual marriage. Hopefully it was the former.

Since this conversation I’ve been deliberately (but not seriously) ‘match-making’ my baby boy with babies of both (all) genders. It’s interesting to see peoples’ reactions when the babies are of the same gender. Some people are obviously uncomfortable. Fortunately, some people are more than accepting; it’s not even questioned.

I hope that by the time my son is old enough to start pursuing relationships, the idea of a homosexual relationship will be as normal and acceptable as a heterosexual relationship.

Ever noticed how scars on a guy are (generally) considered distinguished and brag-worthy? Often referred to as ‘battle-scars’ – even if said scars are earned/acquired via less than noble pursuits (e.g. a drunken accident). Ever noticed how scars on a girl are (generally) considered unsightly and shameful? To be removed/hidden – even if they are earned/acquired via more commendable behaviour?

Case in point: stretch marks resulting from pregnancy (or even stretch marks in general). Why do we (pregnant women) spend so much time/money trying to prevent stretch marks, or trying to reverse stretch marks? (And I must admit: I did try to prevent stretch marks, but I was not very vigilant). Shouldn’t we be proud of these marks? Are they not brag-worthy? I can’t think of anything more deserving of respect – I GREW A PERSON! AND THEN I GAVE BIRTH TO THIS PERSON. You wanna compare ‘battle’-scars? I think my scars beat your bar-fight scratches.

So yeah, I’m proud of my stretch marks.

Yes, I’m still alive. And no, I didn’t run out of things to write about (rest assured, there are plenty of half-finished posts in my ‘Drafts’ folder).

So, what happened? I guess it was a combination of self-sabotage, losing confidence in my writing, and losing momentum in general. Also, being heavily pregnant and ‘hysterical’

But, I’m back! And I want to write things! For now, here is my greatest creation:

Fyoden

Born on the 28th of June, weighing 3.36kg (7lbs, 6.5oz)

If women are buying pads, then that’s probably because they want pads. Crazy concept, I know – women making decisions for themselves… I realise that some women buy both tampons and pads (I did, before I discovered moon cups), but this won’t really apply to them, because they already buy tampons. If they’re being thrown in there as a ‘test-this-new-product’ thing then that’s kind of redundant because we all know what tampons are – we learn this in school! And if we’re still not buying them, it’s because we don’t want them!

It made me think that tampons were being included with pads as a kind of reminder that they’re the ‘real’ or superior feminine hygiene product, and that pads are inferior and ‘gross’. I encountered this attitude when I was in primary school and I still do… Tampons are considered superior to pads, because they are small and mostly hidden from sight, and pads are considered to be really huge and obvious (because pads haven’t improved since the 1800s…) and messy (because apparently tampons never leak)! Never mind that tampons can be more dangerous (i.e. Toxic Shock Syndrome), it’s far more important to hide the fact that you’re menstruating, because periods are gross! And you’ll attract bears!

Also, what’s with the obsession with small tampons? They keep getting smaller and smaller! It’s like the quality of being discrete is now more important than tampons actually fulfilling their function (that is, catching blood, eww!). It’s getting to the point now where if you buy the ‘Super’ heavy ones, you feel like a menstruation monster! Real women have light periods, and perfect women don’t have periods at all. But at least you’re buying tampons, and not pads… Pads are so 19th century. You might as well live in a hut on the fringes of society for a week.

If you’re not already familiar with this concept, here is what Face-rape entails: it occurs when someone (usually a friend or co-worker) gains access to your Facebook account (for example, when you leave it open without logging out) and updates your status to something like this: (note: in my experience, Face-rape predominantly affects guys/men/boys).

[Joe Bloggs] likes boys/wants cock/is gay/[or some variation thereof].

I suppose the reason this is referred to as ‘Face-rape’ is because 1) the person (‘victim’) has not consented to the act, and 2) it’s arguably violating and humiliating. Obviously, Face-rape is not equivalent to, well, rape. So I hate the name, because it trivialises rape and treats it as something that can be joked about. But even worse is the intention behind it…

When I try to imagine the thought process of someone committing Face-rape, it goes something like this:

“What can I say that will be really embarrassing/humiliating/hilarious? Hmm… I’ll announce that they’re gay! They’ll be so embarrassed/humiliated/pissed off! Har har. I’m so witty and original.”

Do these people not realise how incredibly homophobic this is?! Are they completely oblivious to the disturbingly high suicide rate of young people who are gay/outed as gay/presumed to be gay? Don’t they realise how disrespectful this is to the LGBTQ community? They act as if being gay is the most embarrassing and hilarious thing to announce to one’s peers/colleagues/family, and they presume that the person they’re doing this to is completely comfortable with their sexuality, and will not be deeply upset.

I get so angry when I see incidents of Face-rape all over my News Feed. And it’s so frustrating because it’s relatively anonymous so I have no-one to focus my anger upon. Can we stop this and move on now? Or if people are going to Face-rape, then could they at least be more creative and non-discriminatory? Please? It is not funny, and it is certainly not original (if my News Feed is anything to go by).

Sporting a weighty man bag may be the latest fashion for fellows but it can cause back pain and poor posture, British chiropractors say.

No. Freaking. Shit. We need the British Chiropractic Association (BCA) to substantiate this claim? I’ve already written about how much I despise words with ‘man’ prefixes. So, just to be clear, the use of ‘man bag’ here is deliberate, right? And the article is definitely not talking about…bags…right?

A BCA study showed that the average man bag weighs up to 6.2 kg (13.67 lb), the equivalent of over 12 bags of sugar. In the digital age men’s bags are loaded with essential on-the-go accessories, laptops, mp3 players, phones and gym kit. A hefty burden if carried on one shoulder for prolonged periods of time.

Yeah. Because women don’t use laptops, mp3 players or phones. And they don’t use the gym either. That would explain why the article refers to ‘man bags’ and not just ‘bags’. No wait, maybe women are just immune to back pain and poor posture – that must be it. Glad we cleared that up.

If you haven’t seen this ad yet, be prepared for ridiculous gender stereotypes that may possibly lead to vomiting… (thanking LadyNews for getting me on to this gem). Here’s a summary of the split-screen commercial:

Cisgender boy wearing blue / cisgender girl wearing pink

Boy playing with trucks / girl playing with dolls

Boy playing in mud outside / girl attempting to bake inside

Boy running around in pirate outfit waving a sword / girl twirling about in a dress waving a wand

[Voice-over: "Boys and girls are different..."]

Boy reading book titled “Trucks” / girl reading book titled “The Princess”

Boy sleeping under blue truck-themed duvet with dinosaur toy / girl sleeping under pink floral duvet with fluffy unicorn toy

[Voice-over: "That's why only Huggies nappies have tailored absorbency with a unique surge layer where they need it most; in the front for boys, and lower down for girls. Huggies nappies: because there is a difference."]

I must admit, on some level, I’m impressed by this ad – it’s marketing genius! God forbid, you buy the wrong colour – I mean, the wrong “surge layer” – and your baby’s urine starts leaking out the edges (?). But were the gender stereotypes really necessary to enforce this? The anatomical difference angle seems good enough on its own…

To be fair, I know almost nothing about marketing and advertising (apart from watching Mad Men…), but it’d be nice to see Huggies do something original for a change – like gender-neutral-coloured nappies! However, I assume this is scientifically proven not to sell… Or else it would have been done, right?

And while we’re on the subject of appalling and unoriginal Huggies commercials, I dare you to watch this one.

Examples:

• This group is pathetic. Get. Over. It. It’s a promotion, done for fun.
• Relax. It’s a fun campaign….
• Wow you people need to lighten up a lil & chill out & learn to have some fun…
• Learn to have a laugh
• PFT, let them have their fun, if you dont like it dont enter.
• Pull your head out of your feminist asses and get a sense of fucking humour.
• The competition will still happen. It’s for a laugh. No one is going to die.
• Loosen up. Worrying about things is not going to make you a happier person.

Responses:

• People murder, rape and pillage all over the world frequently. The point is we don’t endorse it for ‘humour’.
• Why would a woman want to marry and sleep with some stranger and leave her homeland and her family for somewhere she knows no one and she can barely speak the language? Because she is desperate. The sort of desperation that would cause women to do something like this is NOT the sort of thing you turn into light entertainment.
• The whole premise behind this campaign is that its funny for well off white men from New Zealand to be able to buy a woman from a poor country. Inherent in this is the idea that women are property which can be bought and sold and that exploiting someone’s economic situation like this is fine.
• I don’t think the campaign is funny I think it’s hurtful and exploitative and apparently I am not alone. The Rock’s audience’s need to be ‘entertained’ doesn’t need to come at the expense of upsetting others.
• Have a laugh? But laugh at who exactly? At someone’s situation? Why is OK to make a joke of a person’s situation merely because it’s not something we have to directly deal with? Do you have a laugh about disabled children too?
• ‘Have a bit of a laugh’. The only joke this competition plays on is that you can own a woman. It is targeting it’s humour at dense sexists. If I was stupid enough to listen to the radio, I’d be offended that The Rock took me for such an idiot that they thought I’d laugh like I was challenged at something so stupid.
• One thing I’ve learned from all this is that a lot of New Zealanders think that their right to have a good laugh outweighs the rights of marginalised people to be free from discrimination and oppressive attitudes towards them. Humour trumps human rights, apparently.
• Every small commentary pays into the larger narrative that shapes people’s perception of women. If you tell people that it’s a joke, that it’s ok to commodify women through a competition, they’ll see it as going some way to verifying their thoughts on how to treat women – if your family tell you it, and your mates tell you it, and the media tell you it, and work tells you it…it’s gotta be ok, right? Wrong. That’s called the patriarchy.

2. But These Agencies Already Exist! (a.k.a. I Don’t See the Problem, What about the Bigger Problems?)

Examples:

• But it already happens… So really it’s nothing to do with the rock radio station, they’ve just brought the problem to light, and now every1′s finger pointing at them… If the man wants a wife and the woman wants a husband, I don’t see the problem, they’re just opening up that opportunity for 2 people, through agencies that are already exist…
• Could somebody please tell me the problem with this campaign? …These agencies have been around for years. Why the sudden uproar against it now?
• I cant see a problem with the competition as anyone can find a buy a bride website and go buy their own anyway the only difference here is a radio station is giving one away! Wheres the problem?
• I can find multiple websites offering mail order brides… Whats the problem with this compitition?
• This happens with or without the rocks help ALL the time, sorry to burst your bubble, if you want to stop this, you should be going at the websites that do this, not the rock
• The prize is, in fact, a trip to Ukraine to meet with an agency who deals with said women. This shit already exists, and is an established market.
• Why hasn’t the topic of mail-order brides been subject to such scrutiny up until now?
• Perhaps the bigger issue is that such an agency exists at all.
• If you against this competition, why don’t you try stop all mail order brides?
• I suggest that you put your time to better use and try to improve the conditions these woman put up with in there own country. i am in no doubt that they have tough lives. don’t sit here and wine about these guys exploiting woman. go straight to the source complain to the UN.
• If you want to start a group to stop this happening why has it only taken till now for you to say something when people having been going overseas for years in order to find love.
• [If] there’s demand for such a “service”, who are we to get in the way?
• Come on there a more serious problems in the world at the moment.
• Whos cares thats rite the only ones that care about there own counrties promblem like the civil unrest in epgty or the stravation in africa na lets jusrt save one ukarian hooker frome being won by some sleezy old bastard…

Responses:

• It’s not that buying a bride is anything new, it’s that the competition is promoting it.
• There’s a concept in activism called “teaspoons” – many people, all over the world, working on problems big and small, on a daily basis. To break down systemic oppression you have to work on the small things too – like a culture’s perception of how a woman should be treated. We are one small group doing our small bit.
• Many of the people involved in this campaign work (paid and voluntarily) on other social justice issues…It’s just that we can’t ‘save the world’ all at once, and this particular page is about the win a wife comp. There are so many facets to this, we are just focussing our energies on this at the moment.
• Research shows that the majority of organisers at the Ukrainian end are underground crime rings. we cant fight much at this end because they have dotted thier Ts and crossed their I’s. There are humanitarian groups working at the other end. What we CAN do is highlight that this IS exploitation. That it is NOT ok, and that the concept of owning a woman is archaic and sick.
• Breaking down institutionalized sexism and oppression is more than sitting at a computer doing an online protest. There are some people who are commenting here whose life work it is. There are some people who may go off to donate to a linked charity or simply spread the knowledge they’ve gained…We’d like to see other options available. As people have said, if the radio station is so concerned about giving a woman in another country a foot up, why don’t they sponser her to work here? Why don’t they pay for her to come here and do an OE? No, they think they’re “saving” her by giving her the opportunity of marriage.
• You can’t stop women from essentially selling themselves for residency out of desperation, but that doesn’t make it right, or comedy. The fact that this competition objectifies the desperate situation of these women makes it distasteful.
• Many people who I know commenting on this page are working in both paid and voluntary roles to end violence against women in NZ and overseas, and to help get children out of poverty and unsafe family situations.
• People who are campaigning here about this ALSO campaign and do good work elsewhere about it. We multitask on the little injustices that feed into the bigger narrative all the time.
• There are campaigners working tirelessly on this all the time, from the volunteers in women’s shelters up to law makers the world over and in the UN.
• Don’t worry – we’re capable of addressing multiple concerns with multiple people/businesses/organisations/states at one time.
• As for supply and demand for women to be trafficked to countries and used as sex slaves. Just because there is a demand for that should we not attempt to stop it? Also, when people are talking about this as a ‘supply’ (as in the women are the supply) and demand issue then doesn’t that say something? These are human beings…
• We CAN campaign for women’s rights in the Ukraine/the world over – to argue the big stuff – AND campaign to break …down the “small stuff” at the same time. The small stuff buys into the big stuff – if we let competitions like this continue and perpetuate, they’ll keep informing the culture of mail order brides as being “ok”.
• You haven’t have an investment in the issue until now – I call it “selective blindness”.
• This is not the only show in town, but the existence of other injustices elsewhere does not diminish the importance of this issue. To suggest it does is classic derailment technique.
• Maybe while we won’t have rushed into the save the day of some poor women – I mean, yeah, that’s patronizing – we have started a conversation, got our foot in the door, maybe had a few people go “oh yeah”. Perhaps from this there will be links to places people may want to volunteer or give money, other places on the web to read about bride/sex trafficking where you can find other ways to help out.

3. You’re Making Mountains out of Molehills! (a.k.a. You’re Overreacting)

Examples:

• Stop making mountains out of mole hills.
• You’re reading into this way too much.

Responses:

• A radio station taking advantage of the desperate plight of some vulnerable women in Ukraine to improve their ratings and enhance their brand is a mountain not a molehill. That NZ culture has degraded to the point where this competition is considered a) a funny joke, b) empowering of Ukrainian women and c) just a travel competition is a mountain not a mole hill.
• I do not accept that we are making this out to be more than it is, in fact I suggest that many NZers are making this out to be much, much LESS than it is; and this is one of the biggest issues of all.

4. But the Best Case Scenario Might Eventuate! (a.k.a. They Might Fall In Love!, The Rock Might Rescue A Poor Woman)

Examples:

• We are complaining because you ‘people’ are sticking your big noses into a comp which is actually set up to help 2 people live a happy life.
• People who like this are just a joke, its an opportunity to find love.
• See the comp for what it is people…. a chance for someone to find the person they could love and spend the rest of their life with!”
• Now some good as kiwi bloke has a chance to meet a nice lady. If she is wanting to marry just to get out of the country then good on her. She can come to NZ and be treated better. Everyone wins. Apart from the people that are having a waah waah over it.

Responses:

• A variety of scenarios could come from this specific competion dependent on what male is chosen and what females are chosen for him. But it’s senseless to imagine the outcomes when the main point is that NZ radio stations or companies should not be encouraging and providing a means for these activities to take place.
• If he can’t find ‘love’ the regular way, then how will he find ‘love’ via a Russian bride agency? You think there will actually be any ‘love’ involved?
• Maybe it is good for the guy (although that is highly debatable), but there is a world beyond “the guy”. It is a pretty big world and while there is plenty of beauty and wonder, there is also a great deal of horror. We don’t need to add to it the way this competition does.
• If it was about “rescuing” a Ukranian woman, they would just do so. There would be no competition.
• I don’t believe there is much stopping the Rock from supporting a young Ukrainian woman for work here without needing to exploit the vulnerable with a competition…The Rock can circumvent that by sponsoring a young lady themselves. They could get her a job at the station, find ESL lessons for her.
• Once they have escaped the horrors of their current situation, they might end up in even worse situations, at which point their options are somewhat diminished. So while the “marriage” part of it might have some positive consequences (but also might not) this issue is more about what this says about our attitude towards women. It is the approach more than the actual act.
• If the rock really wanted to make a difference why not send someone on a trip to the Ukraine to find a woman with a great radio voice. Sponser her a dj job at the rock? Nope it’s about ownership and archaic principles.
• There is no intention on the part of the rock or contestants to bring a woman back to NZ. This means they are [objectifying] these women with no intention to help her in any way.
• Neither do we object to two people from other countries falling in love. We object to one person having a socio-economic power differential over the other, and using that power differential to win/purchase/objectify another.

5. Are You Sure You Understand the Competition?

Examples:

• Its just an opportunity for someone to travel they r not payin for the person to actually bring a wife back if the person who wins does make a connection with a women then they must find the money themselves for her to come here to nz so no the rock is not objectifying woman at all they r just tryin to help someone maybe fulfil their dreams of travelling
• Do you actually understand how this promotion is being run? It is basically an expensive blind date. These women are not forced to return to NZ nor are they forced to marry the eventual winner.
• Ok you guys all know that the winner isn’t actually guaranteed a wife right?
• You do realise they are just winning tickets to Ukraine and some spending money. There’s not some abused european woman locked in a cell, waiting for some murderer to throw her in a bag and bring her back here.

Responses:

• Would it be OK if a radio station had a comp to “win an African slave?” (I know that they’re not the same thing, but bear with me – this is how analogies work.) Now, imagine that they’re defending it by saying “It’s OK though, because they’re not actually winning a slave, just a trip to Africa and a chance to play with some children, if they want to buy them they have to pay for their plane tickets themselves.”
• Look if it was really a TRIP OF A LIFE TIME then they’d promote it as such and I’m guessing if it was really about the holiday the destination would be somewhere that isn’t a known destination for human trafficking.
• If it was all about the travelling you seem to think that makes it better. But in that case they purposely decided to take a simple competition and coat it with this fucking bizarre women-are-consentless-prizes narrative to sell their shitty product. It means they went *out of their way* to alienate and commodify women, not to mention all the terrifying this-wife-buying-shit-isn’t-a-joke-it-actually-happens aspects.’
• It seems to me that your main pro-competion point is that it is “a compitition to visit a country and meet potential wives”. Then why is there no information about the Ukraine or destinations you will visit or even a single image of the country or culture on their website.’

6. You’re Just Giving The Rock Free Publicity!

Examples:

• As far as im concerned the more u protest about this in the media the more free advertising your giving to the rock…
• You are all doing exactly what they want and giving them FREE publicity…good or bad..its still advertising.
• People like you are great advertising for The Rock. Without you – and all the media attention the protesters have drawn – The Rock would not have got anywhere near the media coverage and free advertising they have got. They probably owe you a wee note of thanks.

Responses:

• Sweet let’s ignore murder and drunk driving then, wouldn’t want to give it ‘publicity’ eh?
• There’s a difference between publicity and protest. Silence gets nothing changed in this world
• Actually not all good publicity is good publicity, the Rock relies on advertisers who might not want their brand associated with this crap.
• Would a “Pedophiles: win a free kid!” competition still generate free publicity and would that still be good?

7. This is Political Correctness Gone Mad!

Examples:

• Some people should stop being so pc, and learn to get on with life instead of making little issues out of nothing..
• It all sounds like no-one is happy with their lives so have to interfere with others and just cant seem to get over being PC and just let people be what they want to be.
• Stop being so friken P.C.
• All you haters out there need to get a life and complain about something worth while…like the price of food/milk. PC gone mad…once again!!! People like you and your anti-smacking buddies are what is wrong with NZ….Once again, seriously…get a life!!!

Responses:

• And then we have the “pc” comments, which are so often thrown around in the absence of any coherent argument.
• I’d rather not stop being ‘so PC’ because being ‘so PC’ protects the rights of people who would otherwise be left homeless, jobless and violently assaulted for being who they are.

8. I Think Your Only Problem with this Competition is the Title.

Examples:

• It’s just the title that’s controversial. Which is good I think. Good on the marketing team I say.
• It seems all you guys have done is looked at the name (Win a Wife) and started your group.
• It seems like your strongest objection to the competition is the name of it.
• I think you guys are all just upset because of the name that they chose.
• The title of the competition is the only thing that is remotely horrible. But it’s for marketing.

Responses:

• No – it is not about the title… It is about the treatment of women that this thing engenders. It is about what it says about our attitudes towards women.
• Our problem is with the marketing of the competition, which clearly and deliberately portrays women as commodities, not as people.
• The main issue here is not what the competition says about Ukrainian women but what it says about cultural notions of marriage and wives and women here in New Zealand. The ‘Win a Wife’ concept suggests that in NZ wives are commodities, male chattels to be bought and sold, given away and won. That said the competition does also imply that Ukrainian women are somehow less human, more easily bought/sold/won.

9. What About [This Other Competition]? (a.k.a. You’re Just Targeting The Rock!)

Examples:

• Were you up in arms about The Edge’s promotion to Marry a Stranger a few years ago – a promotion where they actually got Married having NEVER meet before?!
• I seem to recall a promotion on ZM (could have also been the Edge) where a Canadian women (who lived in NZ) was hooked up with a Kiwi man. Her parents objected but she still went ahead with it… all while being filmed for TV…. PLease try and tell me this is worse…
• I see and hear no complaints when other stations promote “blind” weddings, but all of a sudden the male focused station does something and you’re all over it like a rash.
• I think you’re using this promotion to attack a radio station which you don’t like.
• Do you also have issues with the various reality tv shows such as the bachelor, or outback jack?
• How is this any different to “The Edge’s Two Strangers & a wedding comp”
• I cannot see the difference between this and the TV programmes Outback Jack (where american ladies go to OZ to meet an outback cowboy and to fall in love and get married…. why is this not considered exploitation Australian outback men… or are men not exploitable????) and the Bachelor, again single ladies fighting over a man to get married and getting their hearts ripped out on national TV….
• Are you up in arms about the multitude of competitions I see in women’s magazines of farmers looking for wives? Are those women also being exploited, or are the men?
• This is exactly like The bachelor or something like that, except the gender has been reversed so everyone has a fit about it.

Responses:

• So two (mostly) non-marginalised people *living in NZ* hooked up for a radio stunt? …How does that even compare?
• Two strangers and a wedding or whatever the name of that thing was is not the same as WIN A WIFE. OK? The “husband” and “wife” were on equal footing.
• There is no comparison between the two strangers marrying and this win a bride, …I understand that it is essentially win a date, but, in the NZ situation, both sides are on equal footing, they would have support of families/friends and can speak the language and have a job (I assume.) in this situation, The woman is INSTANTLY on the back foot, as the guy has all the power; from the money, the country, the language and the job (assumed.)
• How does it make us hypocrites for opposing this competition now, but not traveling back in time to oppose a similar competition (that started before Facebook existed) which wasn’t making a woman the prize for a man (it was offering two strangers marriage on an equal footing)… also, there was a considerable controversy at the time, too.
• There is a very OBVIOUS difference. People going on reality television and radio from privileged countries; looking for fame, cash and perhaps a mutual desire for sex. That’s equal footing that’s fine, they chose it. Women in a desperate situation joining an agency offering them to anyone willing to pay the price, or who happens to win a competition. You can’t say it’s the same as dating, because if this guy decides he wants one of the women she will be sold to him.

10. If You Don’t Like It, Just Ignore It/Don’t Complain!

Examples:

• If you dont like it no one is forcing you to listen to or watch it, you have the choice to change stations.
• Ya don’t like it Don’t Listen to it . NO one is forcing you to listen to them

Responses:

• I never fail to be amazed by the “if you don’t like it, don’t look at it” argument. If they really believed that, surely they wouldn’t waste their time here.
• It didn’t used to be against the law to kill gay people for being gay. But thankfully people spoke up and things changed – just like people are speaking up now, to make things change.
• Silence is complicitness.
• If we keep quiet about it and act careless, then what do you think will come into those sort of peoples minds who promote such things? that its right???

11. But It Worked Out For Someone I Know

Examples:

• My mate married a ukraine women, off a website, and they have been  happily married for at least 10 years..

Responses:

• Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t. We’re not objecting to inter-racial marriage or relationships. We’re objecting to the commodification of women, how they can be a prize and controlled, and the abuse, violence and death that can stem from that.
• Would you agree though, that even though your friend had a good experience there are many other experiences and companies who wouldn’t be quite so on the side of the women? That perhaps other dating agencies/mail order bride services spin things for the sake of making money and ignoring the woman’s rights completely?

12. I Want You to Educate Me and I Refuse to Do it Myself!

Examples:

• I have still NOT seen any proof that these woman are doing this against there own will.
• These women aren’t locked up somewhere, they have willingly joined an agency, unless someone has PROOF to the contrary?
• I’m asking to be educated in what you are doing
• Wat is this even about??

Responses:

• ***I Am Not Obligated To Educate People If I Don’t Have The Energy/Time/Spoons***. There is a big fucking internet out there where people can educate the shit out of themselves.
• You’re on the fucking INTERNET. If you can’t educate YOURSELF with this utterly gargantuan resource at your fingertips, how can you even manage to butter toast?
• Google “Human Sex Trafficking” or “Mail Order Brides and Violence”. You can even cut n paste if you need to.
• “…Today’s slaves are predominantly female and usually work in private households, starting out as migrant domestic workers, au pairs or “mail-order brides”. Most come willingly at first, seeking to improve themselves, escaping poverty and hardship, but some have been deceived by their employers, agencies or other intermediaries, have been debt-bonded, and even trafficked. They find it difficult to extract themselves from their situation. Many of them do not know where to turn for help and do not dare go to the police for fear of deportation.”
  http://assembly.coe.int/documents/WorkingDocs/doc04/edoc10144.htm
• Also a good doco (on Thai brides, like Louis [Theroux]’s, not women from Ukraine) is Bride Trafficking Unveiled (on youtube on 6 or 7 parts); really emphasizes how the women signing up to these agencies are mislead or under false impressions about what marrying a western man will be like.
• I suggest you have a look at several reports from the United Nations concerning the traffiking of women from post Soviet Countries like Ukraine. The structual adjustment programmes forced on some of these eastern bloc countries had… a massive effect on unemployment and in particular, women. Hence the desire of some women to try and leave the country for a better life. I don’t begrudge these women at all. I have a massive problem however with people in rich countries like New Zealand exploiting this hopelessness.

13. You’re Violating My Freedom of Speech! (a.k.a. Censorship!)

Examples:

• Why are you deleting comments who have merely stated facts that oppose your cause and blocking people with valid arguments?
• I like to think of it as censorship.
• Freedom of speech baby. Freedom of speech.

Responses:

• We haven’t done that. We’ve deleted threats and pointless hateful one-liners.
• Maybe because we’re sick of people putting comments like “Kiwi women r ugly u jus jelus bictch”. This is a group put together to figure out how to stop this competition. It wasn’t set up so a bunch of dudes could have a laugh baiting women who are upset about this. If you don’t like it – don’t join.
• There’s a major difference between censorship and moderation. The commenting rules of this space are quite clear – if you make pointless or threatening remarks they will be deleted. If you continue to do so, or cry censorship, you are breaching the safe space and consensual boundaries put in place. Which is not unusual for people intent on constantly breaching women’s safe spaces and voices.
• Freedom of speech is not freedom to hate.
• I think you’ll find that this forum is called “Stop win a wife”, not “Let’s debate win a wife”, it is a space for people who want to stop the competition to share ideas and resources and support. I haven’t gone to The Rock’s page to harass their fans, and I just had a look at their page and no one else from here has either. By “Liking” this page and then insisting that it’s OK to be here but rant against its basic premise, you’re trolling, pure and simple.
• The focus of this group is to stop the competition (hence the name of the group). Another group to actually discuss the issues raised would be interesting, and if anyone wants to start one up, I’l…l join that too, but **our** focus is stopping something we all passionately believe is wrong. The prime purpose of this group is for like-minded people to share their efforts to achieve our collective goal. From my reading of the mods’ comments, we’ll discuss reasonable points raised by people (whether they agree with us or not) but we need to take care so as to not be distracted from our primary goal.
• This wasn’t set up as a ‘debate page’, this was set up as a page to help direct people who want to take action to stop this competition.The moderators are all doing this voluntarily and this takes a lot of time, par…ticularly when the page is filled up with abusive stuff and issues that have already been endlessly discussed. As this is a page that a group of us have created, we really do have the right to decide what is OK and what is not OK on it. The ‘freedom of speech’ arg does not really apply here. All FB pages and groups are in some sense ‘private’ in that the moderators/owners do have the right to decide what they want happening within the online group, and who they do not want in the group. Honestly, if you do not support what this group is trying to achieve, you should un-like this page, and conduct your debate on one of the many blog posts on this topic.

14. Ha! You’re Getting Angry – That Invalidates Your Arguments!

Examples:

• You’re getting your panties in a twist.
• There’s no need for anger.
• I don’t appreciate your tone.

Responses:

• Our anger stems from our gender being treated miserably, and we actually DO have the facts about a problem (because we live it, or it is important enough that we have a lot of info on hand). Anger is a valid form of response.
• The validity of any statement I make shouldn’t be somehow invalidated by me being angry. If the statement is valid, anger is irrelevant to the veracity of my words. Saying “You’re too angry, no wonder no-one listens to you” is nothing more than a silencing technique. ‘Anger’ is not a logical fallacy in and of itself.
• You need to realise that when you are not the person whose rights are being infringed upon that you will get angry and passionate responses to your offensive, dumbass queries on the subject. When people get angry and passionate at you, take it on the chin and try to ignore it, because you’re not the one who is affected by the issue.

15. But The Women Are Consenting! They’re Choosing To Do This!

Examples:

• These Ukrainian women are advertising their “availability” voluntarily on that agency’s website, right? …if no one’s being forced into anything against their will, what’s the problem?
• Most of these women who involve themselves in such agencies WANT to be ‘bought’… Basically, if you really do care about these women, you’d realise that they feel this is their way out. If I was in their shoes, and people like you got the idea pulled, I’d be pretty pissed.
• I believe the women interested in dating and possibly marrying Kiwi men are doing so of their own free will. They may well have a strong motivation to ‘escape’ their life, as may any women (or man) who marries for a reason other than love, like the woman who marries for status or money or security or because she’s pregnant, but that is their choice to make.
• THEY chose to sign up to the agency… get over it.
• At the end of the day even hookers CHOSE to be there…. they have CHOSEN to allow men to pay a dowry for them, something that a few years back was not that uncommon.
• And the women are all consenting. So I don’t see a problem – it is actually the opposite of sexism i.e. empowering women.
• If they had a problem with it wouldnt they just not do it , obviously that is want tht want so let them be because u aint doin anything to help.
• If the women leaves the country willingly to try and make a better life for herself, if she doesnt like the guy, she can leave him..Its not like NZ laws will make her stay with him and hes not going to chain her into slave labour like some countries. She has the choice.
• Even if some one has a gun to your head you have a choice. it may not be a nice choice but a choice it still is.

Responses:

• Is it a choice if it’s simply a way to escape extreme poverty? Would you consider marrying a stranger and moving to a foreign country and giving up ever seeing your family again? This is akin to asylum seeking. It’s exploiting women who.are in desperate situations for a radio stunt. What support network is set up for these women?
• But, exploitation doesn’t necessarily mean someone is being forced at gunpoint to do something. Exploitation is when one party has very few life choices open to them, and another party takes advantage of their limitations to offer them a crap deal which they have no option but to accept. And that second party could offer a better deal, but chooses not to. Like when people choose to work in sweatshops rather than starve. You have to wonder how many options are available to the women at mail-order bride agencies, when their best one is to sign themselves up to marry a stranger in a foreign country. There is a reason NZ women aren’t offering themselves up to marry Ukrainian men. There is no question that mail order bride agencies are exploitative.
• If you are too poor to refuse an offer of marriage, that doesn’t actually count as much of a choice. These women sign up for these marriage agencies out of desperation (and the extent to which they are pressured to do so is also of concern)… There are numerous additional problems with how these women are treated and valued, as noted many many times on this page. If there was no element of the exploitation of women, we would see equal numbers of marriage agencies selling men; as it stands we are indoctrinated and socialized from birth to consider women property.
• Actually not all prostitutes ‘choose’ to be so. Ever heard of sex slaves and human trafficking? Did you know the Ukraine is a hot spot for such activity?
• Sometimes women who partipate in mail order situations have very little options, and their financial prospects are limited. You have a very comfortable situation here in New Zealand – that’s privilege – and until you are in borderline morally ambiguous situations you’d have no clue what it’s like to have few choices. Little choice is no choice at all.
• Think about it: A country where your rights are taken away. You dont have prospects for a job so you sell yourself for sex/marriage. You sell the only commodity you have: Your body. Some women in these countries have to do just this. And you think this isnt an issue? Seriously though people: I know there are some that dont understand that this happens in the world because they cant look past their own back yard; But it is a very harsh world out there for some people and you need to understand that this is not ok.
• When a person barters their autonomy, they do it because of a skewed power differential, not because they have wide and free choice.
• Saying these women “willingly” joins could be a little deceptive. I think when “willingly” is used, we assume it simply means that they are in a sound mind to make the decision – which you may be right, it is likely that they willingly joined – but it also assumes that the person has no other factors influencing them, such as desperation, poverty, e.t.c. Now, the gross GDP per capita in Ukraine is around about $3002 USD. For a little comparison, NZ’s gross GDP per capita is $31,066 USD. (these are pulled from the IMF if you want the references). Could you live off $3002 USD a year? I certainly would doubt my ability to do so. If I had no support if I were in that situation, would I consider doing something desperate? Hence the difference. Their “willingness” may be in the “considered all the factors and made a decision in a sound mind”, but what if desperation is the main motivating factor?
• Do you have ANY clue outside your tidy kiwi privilege what these women may go… through? Do you understand the pressure and violence and death that mail order brides are often subjected to? I’m getting very tired of people wandering in here to claim it’s all “equal” for the parties. You really need to do some research on global bride and sex trafficking, and the circumstances the women come from. Anyone who supports this supports the trafficking, violence and objectification of women.
• Most Australian & New Zealand women have CHOICES, well, except some in very abusive relationships.. even then we have Women’s Refuge & a welfare system that covers a basic standard of living. Millions of women overseas have little positive choice and no safety nets. To compare this misogynist promotion to The Bachelor or any privileged westerner reality show, displays complete naivety & ignorance to the REAL realities of other countries.